PSAC

The AFPC understands that unity is strength. With its mission of defending and federating cannabiculturists in their dealings with institutions, is the AFPC well on the way to becoming France’s leading “cannagricultural” union? François-Guillaume Piotrowski, President of AFPC, explains.

Hello, who are you and what do you do?
I’m François-Guillaume Piotrowski, agronomist technician, I did my first “industrial” scale production, more than 5000 plants, it was in 2015-2016. I had previous experience in the United States, then in Switzerland in large cannabis companies where I was production manager… I came back to France in 2019. When I came back, I already knew Jouany Chatoux, I’d met him several times, and I knew he was very active in promoting the regulation of French hemp. We talked about it a lot. Growing cannabis was my daily business. At the time, I didn’t really understand why CBD was banned here.

“We didn’t feel represented as cannabis professionals or future professionals in France.”

With the Pigerolles farm, he initially had the idea with Yohan and Fabien of creating the AFPC. I joined them two years ago. We started off-line, organizing ourselves to create a dynamic and federate the hemp players. The reality was that we didn’t feel represented as cannabis professionals or future professionals in France. In any case, we didn’t really see a future for growers in the existing organizational scheme for cannabinoid-based production. Then came the association’s first meetings, a year and a half ago in Pigerolles.

So AFPC is an association…
Yes, the French Association of Cannabinoid Producers. It’s two years old, and has been really active for a year and a half…
Its primary objective is to represent, defend and federate growers who need to produce hemp for cannabinoid production. And to obtain a coherent and ambitious framework for this sector in France, in order to join the leading countries in Europe.

Producers who like flowers?
Whether it’s the flower or the extraction of active ingredients, in any case, these are itineraries that have just nothing to do with industrial production, like textile or fiber hemp. It’s the same plant, but it’s not at all the same use, the same destination, nor the same way of producing. The varieties are different, and 95% or 98% of those in the catalog are not at all suited to the production of high-yield cannabinoids. They are not cannabinoid-free, but the yield is mediocre.

“The reality was that we didn’t feel represented as cannabis professionals or future professionals in France.

95 % ?
Yes, 95% of the catalog we’re offered is monoecious, so it’s not at all suitable for making flowers, dioecious plants can make flowers, they’re not feminized, they’re not cuttings, in the seeds you receive, that you’re going to plant, there are 60% males, 40% females, so in the end there are 40% of the plants in the field after sexing the plants.

And in relation to that, it’s two different manufacturing processes, two different agricultures?
Yes, it’s two relatively different types of farming, one with very large surfaces, which is hyper-mechanized, with an industrial aim. That’s for the textile industry, where we’re looking for fiber. You need the right industrial equipment. As for us, we’re more into the medium and small-scale model, with a lot of labor involved, because not everything can be automated or mechanized. The flower is much more sensitive than the rest of the plant, so you have to be relatively careful with the product.

That would be like comparing the post-war agricultural world, and the development of today’s agricultural world around organic farming, around values like permaculture, biodynamics… can we compare them to that?
It’s a diversification model for farmers who have already set up or are in the process of setting up with diversification (having several crops). Monoculture doesn’t work any more, it’s more of an economic model that doesn’t work at the moment, and has no ecological interest, it’s null, cultural renewal is limited.

If a farmer wants to start making flowers and developing cannabinoids, wouldn’t you advise him to do just that?
It’s putting all your eggs in one basket, and that’s dangerous for a farmer. It’s great to specialize in something, but there’s always an element of risk, and when you look at the CBD market, how it’s evolving, it’s a highly volatile market, and even in terms of crop rotation, specialization isn’t necessarily good. Even if you specialize in two or three crops, it’s interesting to have diversity.

“Why did we get together? A total lack of will on the part of the unions and interprofessions in place to develop the cannabinoid sector in France.”

As an association, how did you get together and what do you do?
Why did we get together? A total lack of will on the part of the unions and interprofessions in place to develop the cannabinoid sector in France. Just over a year ago, we had the “kanavape” ruling, which said that it wasn’t illegal to trade in phytocannabinoids(cannabinoids derived from cannabis plants, editor’s note). We’re in the process of accepting that this is happening all over Europe, and we’re told that the flower is waste and should be thrown away… We’re also told that farmers can’t cope. But I get the impression that we’re not trying to find solutions for them, or at least we’re not helping them to move forward and diversify into value-added production. So our task is to take up the case law that was in place and open up a legal and legislative framework favorable to the cultivation of active hemp in France.

Okay, and today, after two years of existence, do you feel that there’s been an evolution? Are you in dialogue with institutions and legislators?
Yes, we were received at the National Assembly. We’re not going to say that everything’s rotten, that would be lying, but it’s very difficult to talk to people, to be heard on this subject. The interprofessional group is taking over every subject, whereas Interchanvre is basically focused on fiber hemp. Interchanvre used to say that cannabinoids were of no interest. Today, they’ve reversed their position, telling us that the cannabinoid industry must develop in France, whereas up until now they’ve done everything to slow it down. Today, Interchanvre is one of the privileged interlocutors of the regulator, the MILDECA(Mission Interministerielle De Lutte contre les Conduits Addictives NDLR), the Ministry of Agriculture and the Interior on this subject.

“Interchanvre is now one of the key contacts for the regulator, the MILDECA”.

We’ve offered to be interviewed several times, and we position ourselves as experts on the issue, since we have a good base of expertise within the association, and we have several people who are European or international consultants. We can provide a vision of the cannabinoid sector in France, and we do have opportunities, but we’re often told that we don’t have enough expertise to develop this.

It’s a bit of a dialogue of the deaf, with mixed results, and we hope that the Ministry of Agriculture will take a closer look at the issue under the new five-year term. Up to now, we’ve had more hearings from the Ministry of the Interior or the MILDECA than from our supervisory ministry, which is the Ministry of Agriculture.

How does it work?
Because up until now, cannabis has been considered a narcotic, but that’s nonsense! It’s a complete misunderstanding of all the uses made of this plant throughout the world, as well as all the scientific publications of recent decades.

“So far, we’ve had more hearings from the Ministry of the Interior or the MILDECA than from our supervisory ministry, which is the Ministry of Agriculture”.

At the moment, you’re struggling to establish a dialogue, aren’t you?
What we’ve done is open up a space for dialogue, and defend a clear line of proposals. We’ve lodged several QPC (question prioritaire de constitutionnalité, editor’s note), several appeals, and we’ve opposed all decisions that were flat-rate, that didn’t really have any jurisdiction. We have a real desire to be a force for proposal and exchange with the institutions, we’re not here to do just anything. We’re asking for a coherent framework, ideologically, technically and scientifically, which would enable us to have a sector of excellence in France.

How many members do you have in the PSAC today?
There weren’t even thirty of us at the start. Today, we have almost 300 members, all cannabinoid growers and our lawyer Maître Scanvic.

Do you feel that there has been an evolution since the creation of AFPC?
With the new parliamentary and political landscape, it’s hard to say what direction this five-year term will take our sector. At parliamentary level over the last few months, there has been a real awareness of the backlog, and of the potential that France has in this sector. Generally speaking, members of parliament and local elected representatives are supportive, so I hope that this will continue and that we’ll be able to achieve something lasting.

“You could say it’s a bit of a dialogue of the deaf”.

There’s also this experiment with therapeutic cannabis. Do you think it can be successful?
It’s important to differentiate between the free market, CBD and medical cannabis. There are several levers, several locks, the main one was ideological, but I think it’s opening up now, and it’s no longer shocking to talk about cannabis freely. I don’t think we’re at the same stage we were 5 years ago. Also, it’s no longer as taboo as it used to be to talk about, to legislate on cannabis, whether it’s cbd, medical, or recreational perhaps tomorrow. There’s a real awareness on everyone’s part, and of the plant’s different uses – it’s not just about drugs and getting high. It’s less divisive than it used to be…

Do you think this plant is less demonized?
Less demonized, let’s be a little more ambitious… Let it be recognized and let there be real ambition around the sector, around recognition, around development. The reality is that public authorities not only have the power to legislate, but also the power to drive the development of a sector through investment, and there are several levers they can activate. At present, we’re hampered by two factors: a lack of investment, because we invest everything out of our own pockets; there are few private investors, and absolutely no public investment. This is regrettable, when we see that our European neighbors can access European subsidies and develop their projects…

Do you think the current situation will last or improve?
It’s up to us to play our part, to be a source of information and proposals. That’s what I say every time we have the opportunity to be heard, we’re not here to do just anything, we’re entrepreneurs, farmers. We’re here to produce, to respond to a market that needs raw materials, and beyond that, to showcase French know-how in terms of quality, organics, traceability, a real value chain, and to give consumers a clear idea of what they’re consuming. At present, this is not the case in the CBD sector.

How do you see yourselves as an association?
Our aim is to accompany this evolution, through discussions with other unions. We’re here as a “union” to provide support to producers, to continue to defend the production environment, and also to be a force for relations with other unions, to discuss the future of the sector and its development. We’re here to structure, and I think that’s the main role of unions at the moment.

AFPC is a support tool for its members, right?
Yes, we offer a whole range of services, including access to suppliers with partnerships to help you pay less, and legal and technical support. It’s about transmission, sharing, exchange, a structuring role that we try to bring to our members.

“Right now, we’re on a single logic: price is the keyword”.

In tobacconists’ or flower distributors’ shops, French products are very rarely seen. How do you intend to tackle this problem?
You have to ask the distributors. Why do they only think in terms of price and not product? I don’t know, it’s complicated. We’ve signed agreements with the two other unions, the Syndicat du Chanvre and UPCBD, to influence the sector and make these players aware that importing products from “Petahouchnok” without knowing where they come from is cheap, that’s fine, but there’s another reality, that of French production, and that you can buy near your home and get local work done. When it comes to today’s distributors, most of them only see the margin. We’re always discussing price.

When you see the products they offer, well, I’m not going to make any friends by saying that, it’s 90% crap. We’ve already discussed this with several distributors to understand their logic and perhaps try to rationalize it all and work together in a coherent way. At the moment, we’re working to a single logic: that of price, that’s the watchword. Our production costs are not the same as in southern Italy, Poland or Uruguay. We can’t compete. You also have to bear in mind that the Swiss and the Italians have been in the sector for 5 years, and have already made their investments profitable, so they can bring prices down, even if it’s to their detriment.

“Production costs here are not the same as in southern Italy(…) We can’t compete.”

Our production costs are much higher than theirs at the moment, because all the investments are made out of our own pocket, so it’s complicated. But we offer a product that is also different, an organic product, and one for which we can ensure traceability, from seed to finished product. When I hear of distributors phoning up members to buy kilos at 80 francs, that’s nonsense.

There are also rinses, and the addition of isolates, distillates and terpenes…
We’ve denounced it several times, because it’s starting to be problematic. The model is simple: you buy flower with 1% THC from the USA or Uruguay, and wash it(a method consisting in “washing” the hemp of a certain quantity of cannabinoids, editor’s note) to bring the level down to 0.2 or 0.3%. Then, as there’s nothing left in the flower, they add distillate or isolate, and put back a little “smell good”, because when you put it through CO2, there’s no terpene left, so you have to put some back in.

“We want to offer natural and organic products, without any manipulation.”

You get the flavor you want, the ratio you want, but it’s a product that has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. We want to offer natural and organic products, without any manipulation. That’s what we’re going to position ourselves on.
We’re organic, traceable, transparent, we’re not here to do and say anything, but to produce something and sell it. We don’t have this “washing” or “terpeniquage” industry.

I saw it when I was in Switzerland, and it hurt my heart. You’ve spent 4 months growing it, pampering your crops, you’ve done a great job, and then at the end they smash it up in the wash and tell you it’s fine, you can sell it in FRANCE. We invite all CBD professionals to think about the issue of French production and to sell local organic and traced products. We’re seeing more and more stores opening, and it’s a flourishing business.

“We invite all CBD professionals to think about the issue of French production and to sell local organic and traced products.”

The area under cannabinoid cultivation in France is set to double this year. We’ve doubled the number of growers who will start cultivating this year. There’s real potential in terms of French supply and French flowers for the coming season. We’re taking a healthy approach and working to develop a fine French industry.